About the Police

[teddywolf]

One of the recent flaps that has gone back and forth between real life and online has tangentially brought up attitudes toward the police. One of the important things about modern civic police forces is that they gain their legitimacy through fair, nondiscriminatory and effective police work. So, I wanted to ask people at large.

You can make comments below. People can comment anonymously here. And for anybody who is coming here for the first time and is worried, I have never worked for or with any law enforcement agency and do not currently work for or with one.

[Poll #1974926]

Comments

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

I generally trust the police more than several of my guy friends do, in that I will approach police for directions, for "Hey, there is a comic shop that is supposed to be near here" for "there is this burger joint I thought was right here" and in those cases my male companion (different ones) tended to be wary and then boggled about how the officer knew exactly where the comic shop was near penns station or didn't know which burger joint I was talking about (it turned out to be several blocks from where I thought it was) but pointed out a great one down that particular block.

I have been pulled over while horribly lost and given a warning and directions. More than once. I was once dehydrated and overtired and pulled over for erratic and a registration I didn't know was out of date, and got a warning for the latter ...despite having accidentally left my drivers license in the bag I had taken to the rally to restore sanity so he was working off a scanned license from my glove compartment. (I was scolded for this, but the fact that I wasn't arrested implies to me it was a proven good idea.)

When I crashed my car at the beginning of may the park police officer waited with me for AAA and once he realized that I lived right next to where he was allowed to drive, drove me home. When my first car was totaled the police officer (who ticketed the other driver) drove me and some stuff to the alumnae picnic where I knew my mom would be. (Set off her car alarm as well, but that is different.)

That all said, I am also well aware of how even white /guys/ experience the police (a non drinking friend recently had a horrid experience in MA with a sobriety checkpoint) and why a black friend of mine never ever leaves his house without ID.

And I know how many people unjustly convicted for stuff started out trying to be helpful and answering questions, and that one should never talk with police re a crime.

And I know that one should never consent to a search without warrant, close the door behind you while answering a, say, noise complaint.

That the last thing any homeowner should want, especially in a situation where they haven't control over who may have brought what into their house, is the police arriving.

Re the stuff that created this conversation, the insistence that "hey, unless someone is actively doing something let us make a call re police" is tantamount to "we're good with endangering you" is disingenuous as best.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

one should never talk with police re a crime

This is very long. It's 48 minutes, approximately the length of a standard college class hour, but it's worth a watch. You may have seen it, because it went viral over the internet some while back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

I'm not sure I agree with it entirely; I think it mostly applies to situations where the police initiated contact with you rather than the other way around. Mostly "Hey, I came home and my 52" flat-screen and home theater setup were gone, along with my Macbook" versus "Ms. Vvalkyri, your neighbor's condo was broken into and we'd like to ask you a few questions...."

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

I kept that open in a tab for ages, but I rarely have patience for having to listen or worse watch something rather than read. I figure I have the gist of it, but perhaps I will play it on the iPad while doing something else. Does it work okay as audio only?

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

It's been a while since I've watched it in its entirety. I know there are some slides. It's also broken into two halves, one is a lecture from James Duane and another is a lecture from a police officer (detective?) to whom the professor has given equal time for rebuttal. So at the very least, you can watch it in two sittings rather than one.

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

Certainly the video is a more-extreme piece of advice than whatever the average is, given the guy's specialization. The Wikipedia page gives a summary, which is presumably reasonably accurate:

"Duane says, inter alia, that: 1) even perfectly innocent citizens may get themselves into trouble even when the police are trying to do their jobs properly, because police malfeasance is entirely unnecessary for the innocent to convict themselves by mistake; 2) talking to police may bring up erroneous but believable evidence against even innocent witnesses; and 3) individuals convinced of their own innocence may have unknowingly committed a crime which they inadvertently confess to during questioning."

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

Interesting... I watched the first 15 minutes or so. I'm not impressed with the professor himself; there seems to be a lot of showmanship and he's pretty thin on hard data. His message seems to actually be "Don't say anything to the police if you have reason to think they suspect you of a crime.", although he phrases it in much more blanket (and inflammatory) terms. I don't know of any reason to believe that is incorrect.

Of course, his data is going to be skewed by being a criminal defense attorney. He hasn't been hanging around with nice people, and they're the people the police will be dealing with particularly badly.

The usual caveats should be applied: Beware if the police think of you as being intrinsically undesirable. Beware if the police think you've gotten away with a lot of crime. Beware if the police think of you as a certain sort of criminal who would be a good target for being framed for an instance of that sort of crime (that someone else committed). Don't get into dominance combat with a cop. Live your life so that a jury would find it intrinsically implausible that you would commit a crime (or at least, any crime you're not willing to take the heat for).

The system is there to protect the generic "you" (and that's only when it's working correctly). It's not there to protect you personally.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

I think that there are certain groups, notably racial minorities and members of various alternative-sexuality communities, who have good reason to distrust the police. There's a long history of discriminatory enforcement against those disenfranchised communities.

Still, they are the only appropriate tool for certain things, especially crimes that have an actual victim where someone is killed or injured, or where their property is taken. Without a trained body of designated people, answerable to a government, who can use physical force and in some cases deadly force on our behalf, we're all reduced to vigilantism, and that's a social structure that sucks far worse. Vigilantism also tends to favor the strong and turn the weak into victims, which is exactly the situation that a system of laws is intended to prevent.

posting anonymously because I trust you

[(Anonymous)]

My views on police have shifted over time.

When I was small, I was *explicitly* taught that police were unreservedly good - authority figures I should always obey and trust. But implicitly I learned they were figures I should fear - such as when they were used as threats to keep unruly children in line.

In my early adulthood I viewed police as unreservedly evil. At this time I and my friends were basically part of a criminal gang, for lack of a better phrase. Police were our enemy - hated and feared. But that was far from the only reason to hate them. Police brutality in the city where I lived only sometimes made the media - it was more prevalent than anyone nationally will ever know, and more horrible.

Times seem to have changed since then, or maybe I have. I have had some decent dealings with police since I cleaned up my act. I see *some* of the fears and hate of police my friends have as an outgrowth of their criminal activity (more than one person has indirectly threatened to kill me if I ever call the police about crimes I witness or am victimized by). But the issues of police brutality are still a hidden corruption that only sometimes come to light. Has it really lessened, or do I just hear less about it now? I don't know.

Re: posting anonymously because I trust you

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

Has it really lessened, or do I just hear less about it now? I don't know.

It would be very hard to know for sure. At the least, you're getting older, and older people are involved in much less violence (in all ways) -- which also means that the cops are less likely to assume you're violent. But there has been a substantial drop in violence in the US over the past two or three decades; it would be surprising if it did not affect situations involving the police.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

The police are not on my side.

On the other hand, I do trust them to do their work.

On the gripping hand, their work and my life oftentimes don't meet up very well and/or are at odds, so just because I trust them to do their work doesn't mean I want to be /involved/ with them doing their work.

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, I do trust them to do their work.

IMHO, a good point -- even if the police are 100% doing the job they are supposed to, that job isn't the advancement of one's own interests.

[realmjit.livejournal.com]

my interactions with the police have been few and far between, but civilized enough that I cannot fathom why my husband is afraid of being arrested every time we are pulled over. Then again, when he pulled over to the left shoulder to replace a right flat tire, he complained that the cop was being an asshole when he was scolded for not pulling over far enough. (He was sitting on the painted line.)

[paper-crystals.livejournal.com]

Somewhat similar to what others have been saying. I trust the police, but I trust the police because I am white. I trust the police MORE in Glens Falls, NY for certain things because I am white (they have a history of harassing black people and especially out of towners) but I trust the NYPD less. Interestingly, with the exception of hate crime, then my trust reverses.

[pseydtonne.livejournal.com]

Sorry -- I'm the son of a public defender. Trusting cops is like eating ice cream with your bare hands in front of hummingbirds and ants.

here is not there

[andreas_schaefer]

so my experiences may differ.
I tend to trust them despite one occasion where they forgot my complaint at a car driver while processing hers ( well police are mostly car drivers too - so violating the right of way of a mere cyclist comes natural )
I was also not very happy that police though illegal fireworks connected to a soccer game ( TV watching fen using a public parking area ) were nothing to investigate ( cause the fen want to party - we MUST allow that )

Sometimes they merely seem VERY inefficient.

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

My response to that question is odd... I can't quite focus on it. What does it mean to "trust" the police? Certainly, they aren't there to advance my interests specifically. I'd say that they generally do their jobs and not infrequently are more helpful than they are required to be, but many times they're sloppy or lazy about their work. I've never personally run into a situation where the police seem to have had unpleasant intentions toward me (that weren't justified by the situation).

Of course, this is affected by my demographics and history. I'm male (negative), white (positive), middle class (positive), getting well into middle age (positive), I rarely travel outside of areas populated by middle-class people (positive), and not noticeably out of the sexual mainstream (positive). But I never had a hell-raising period; I didn't start drinking until late in my 20s and I don't do drugs. So the biggest reason for negative interaction with the cops (misbehaving drunk guy) I never ran into. And I have a deep belief in the fundamental legitimacy of the police's authority (independent of whether I think it is being abused at a particular moment), which I think shows -- I transmit an atmosphere of submission, which is bound to help greatly. I suspect a considerable fraction of trouble with the police comes from people who get into dominance contests with the police. (Vide the Skip Gates scandal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_Gates#Cambridge_arrest).)