(no subject)

[teddywolf]

I'm not going to touch Gaza right now because that would be an even bigger flamewar, but I am annoyed - yea, to the point of pissed off - with Hesbollah.

Israel left the Golan Heights and the rest of southern Lebanon. They completely withdrew. Their reason for staying in the Golan Heights was specifically because it was far too easy for missile strikes on Israel to be launched from there.

Hesbollah dashed into Israel - invaded, technically - kidnapped a soldier, and started firing a surprisingly large number of rockets at Israel. Apparently, they had some help from another country or two, like, oh, say, Syria and Iran. Many rockets fired, a number of casualties in Israel.

We know what Israel's response was: blockade the ports, wreck the main roads to Syria and make the airport unusable, as well as target some government buildings as they feel the government might have more sway than publicly reported (ie None). The reasons given: they do not want Hesbollah to take their soldier out of Lebanon, and they do not want Hesbollah to have easy access to resupply. Hesbollah talked about 'prisoner' exchange - the soldier for a goodly number of Hesbollah members in Israeli jails. This time, Israel refused. This is the first time I can think of where Israel flat-out refused such an exchange.

Oh, the reason I put prisoner in quotes? The Hesbollah prisoners in Israeli jails have been tried in a court of law, been found guilty in said court, and have been kept in jails. The kidnapped soldier has not been tried or convicted in a court of law and is not, to the best of anybody's knowledge who isn't holding him, in an official jail.

I initially thought that the Israeli response was too severe, as it was causing intense damage to infrastructure. I'm not as sure of that any more owing to the extremely provocative nature of Hesbollah's attack, the lack of Lebanese actions of any sort to rein in Hesbollah, and the stated reasons for why Israel is targeting what it is targeting.

Israel does not want to take over Lebanon. It wants its soldier back and wants Hesbollah to stop attacking.

If, say, Cuban nationalist terrorists* came into the US, kidnapped a US soldier, fired rockets into Florida, and demanded that the US release a large number of Cuban nationalist terrorists* in return for the US soldier, what do you think the US would do? What do you think the US should do?

*Yes, I know there has been no sign of Cuban nationalist terrorists. I am using these mythical beats for purpose of example.

All right, talk to me.

Comments

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

Well, first off, isn't it "soldiers," plural? I was under the impression that Hizbollah had now taken at least two IDF soldiers. For that matter, aren't there four missing from Israel's navy, now? This is all in addition to the kidnapping of the soldier in Gaza that started this latest round, who seems to have been forgotten by the press if not by the IDF.

So, with that out of the way? I agree with you. Yes, I know, I'm usually fairly harsh on Israel. However, this case is rather different, involving Lebanon as it does. Hizbollah performs what would by any definition be considered military operations without official government sanction. The Lebanese government has done nothing to check them, and in fact provides them a safe harbor for their activities against Israel. Regardless of the Lebanese position on Hizbollah's activities, if they are going to provide a safe harbor for those activities and do nothing at all to curtail them, then they must accept the consequences and be considered as accomplises to Hizbollah's actions. Basically? It sucks to be the innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, just like it always does in situations like this.

The important question that no one is really willing to consider is this: is there a solution that will stop all this fighting? The short answer is no. The long answer involves both sides giving up on their religious hatred of one another, giving the Palestinians land of their own and leaving them to sink or swim in it, and in simply wiping the slate clean on past offenses, going forward blank and dealing with issues from there. The whole region would have to be involved... and if someone doesn't see why the long answer boils down to "not going to happen" as a short version, then I don't know quite how to explain it.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

Ask kahnman - Israel would be quite happy to give up fighting. It would be deliriously happy if there were no more regular suicide bomb runs hitting its streets.

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm willing to believe that there are plenty of Israelis who'd rather not be fighting at all, just like there are plenty of Lebanese and Palestinians who want the same thing. The problem is in getting to that goal. There are Israelis who just want to be left alone by their neighbors... and there are Israelis who don't want there to be any neighbors, especially not Arab ones. Similarly, there are Palestinians who'd be grateful to be left to live out their lives in peace. Some of them would be happy to just be left alone, others won't be happy until there is no Israel. The only reason I have more sympathy for the Palestinians over the Israelis is that the Palestinians are an occupied people, living on land that was taken from them and given to the Israelis.

Conversely, I don't have any sympathy for the Lebanese. They let this shit happen to them.

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

Hezbollah had now taken at least two IDF soldiers. For that matter, aren't there four missing from Israel's navy, now?

You're right two kidnapped by Hezbollah, and those four navy sailers were killed by that missile.

The Lebanese government has done nothing to check them,

Hezbollah IS part of the Lebanese government! They have 23 members in parliament and two acting ministers. So it's not as if the Lebanese government can pretend to ignore them. Of course the pundits will try and claim that the Hezbollah has different "branches", and the political one should not be accountable for the military one.

The Hezbollah actually have nothing in common with the Palestinians, they don't even share the same religion, as they are Shiites, while the Palestinians are exclusively Sunni (anybody following the news from Iraq knows how well these two groups "get along"). This organization was created, and to this day is maintained by Iran (and Syria), as their long-arm against Israel. It's like Osama bin Laden claiming he did 9/11 "for the Palestinians", when he had never actually mentioned them in his rhetoric prior to that.

giving the Palestinians land of their own and leaving them to sink or swim in it,

The problem is, that this type of solution is precisely what created the present mess. We pulled-out of Gaza, and dismantled the settlements there. This was taken for a sign of weakness, and the Hammas won the following elections, for their part in "forcing Israel out". While part of the reason they won was due to their social-works "branch", they took their win as support for their "Destroy Israel" agenda, and continued directly or condoned others attacking Israel, to the tune of a thousand Qassam rockets raining down on south Israel, which we mostly did nothing about. The non-stop cross-border attacks kept getting more brazen until they finally kidnapped that first soldier. So giving the Arabs/Palestinians exactly what they want, only makes things worse.

As you say, peace in the Middle-East - "not going to happen".

[twfarlan.livejournal.com]

Israel isn't faultless here. I give them credit for pulling back from the settlements. I have no problem with them killing Hamas members, nor with attacking Hizbollah or for that matter Lebanon. Like I said, the Lebanese government (the ones who aren't Hizbollah members) aren't doing anything to force Hizbollah to stop attacking from Lebanese soil, so the people of Lebanon basically can suck it up and deal or rise up and toss out Hizbollah. Pulling out of the occupied territories is the right thing to do. If there are attacks after that, then I'll have zero sympathy for the attackers, absolutely none.