(no subject)

[teddywolf]

Today I was in my Imperialism class. The discussion went around the pre-modern empires and the notion of tribe. Historical tribe, by my professor's definition, is bound by bonds of blood. He brought up the Jews as the first historical pre-modern empire and, among other things, said that this was based on Jewish tribal notions which had no conversions until the modern era.

I decided I had to speak up at this point. I mentioned we had a strong history of conversions, even though they were less common before the modern era. I brought up Ruth, I brought up the Khazars, and mentioned that a number of converts were notable in our history. He then said, "Then why are you a tribe? You can't be G-d's Chosen People by blood while allowing others to join your tribe, it's not logical." I mentioned the distinction between religiously Jewish and Jewish by birth; he said the notions were still incompatible.

Do bear in mind I like my professor. He makes me think and is academically rigorous.

His definition of tribe is as something immutable, you are born to it or not, or might get forced into it by conflict.

I want to present to him examples of tribes that accepted in outsiders to become "of the tribe". I will be doing some research into this because I want to present it to him - yes, I have been looking. If any of you know of an historical example, off the top of your head, something not involving a marriage or slavery, I would appreciate a pointer. It could be somebody joining a Native American tribe, or brought into a particular African tribe, or a Chinese family, a Germanic village, what-have-you - in fact, the more diverse the better. I want to show that a tribe may have been primarily about blood but also could be something a person chose and, under exceptional circumstances, be accepted into.

Please feel free to signal boost this.

Comments

[cellio]

And if he won't accept Ruth because of some perceived vagueness, the talmud is pretty specific and Maimonides, a prominent medieval scholar, answered questions about conversion without seeming to blink. (The famous one is the convert who asks him if he should refer to Avraham, Yitzchak, and Yaakov as "our" fathers when they aren't his ancestors. The Rambam replies that when you join the people you get the ancestors.)

The professor has a peculiar-sounding definition of tribe. If he means bloodline only, well, he's free to structure his world-view that way, but it doesn't have much to do with Judaism.

[avram]

The Rambam was clearly familiar with the works of Gilbert and Sullivan.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

But he enjoyed it more than all the rest of us because only *he* got to hear it in the original Klingon.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

I did mention that his definition might not fit the reality that well for Jews. I need to write a paper for him, I think, and this one won't even be for credit; but I want to make my point and I want it to be a solid point.