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Jul. 27th, 2010 03:04 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
teddywolfToday I was in my Imperialism class. The discussion went around the pre-modern empires and the notion of tribe. Historical tribe, by my professor's definition, is bound by bonds of blood. He brought up the Jews as the first historical pre-modern empire and, among other things, said that this was based on Jewish tribal notions which had no conversions until the modern era.
I decided I had to speak up at this point. I mentioned we had a strong history of conversions, even though they were less common before the modern era. I brought up Ruth, I brought up the Khazars, and mentioned that a number of converts were notable in our history. He then said, "Then why are you a tribe? You can't be G-d's Chosen People by blood while allowing others to join your tribe, it's not logical." I mentioned the distinction between religiously Jewish and Jewish by birth; he said the notions were still incompatible.
Do bear in mind I like my professor. He makes me think and is academically rigorous.
His definition of tribe is as something immutable, you are born to it or not, or might get forced into it by conflict.
I want to present to him examples of tribes that accepted in outsiders to become "of the tribe". I will be doing some research into this because I want to present it to him - yes, I have been looking. If any of you know of an historical example, off the top of your head, something not involving a marriage or slavery, I would appreciate a pointer. It could be somebody joining a Native American tribe, or brought into a particular African tribe, or a Chinese family, a Germanic village, what-have-you - in fact, the more diverse the better. I want to show that a tribe may have been primarily about blood but also could be something a person chose and, under exceptional circumstances, be accepted into.
Please feel free to signal boost this.
I decided I had to speak up at this point. I mentioned we had a strong history of conversions, even though they were less common before the modern era. I brought up Ruth, I brought up the Khazars, and mentioned that a number of converts were notable in our history. He then said, "Then why are you a tribe? You can't be G-d's Chosen People by blood while allowing others to join your tribe, it's not logical." I mentioned the distinction between religiously Jewish and Jewish by birth; he said the notions were still incompatible.
Do bear in mind I like my professor. He makes me think and is academically rigorous.
His definition of tribe is as something immutable, you are born to it or not, or might get forced into it by conflict.
I want to present to him examples of tribes that accepted in outsiders to become "of the tribe". I will be doing some research into this because I want to present it to him - yes, I have been looking. If any of you know of an historical example, off the top of your head, something not involving a marriage or slavery, I would appreciate a pointer. It could be somebody joining a Native American tribe, or brought into a particular African tribe, or a Chinese family, a Germanic village, what-have-you - in fact, the more diverse the better. I want to show that a tribe may have been primarily about blood but also could be something a person chose and, under exceptional circumstances, be accepted into.
Please feel free to signal boost this.
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Date: 2010-07-27 10:50 pm (UTC)There are a variety of answers to his question, btw, embedded in the religious literature.
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Date: 2010-07-28 03:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-28 11:12 am (UTC)In any event, I would argue that, based on my albeit limited knowledge, most tribal systems work on a theory that relies predominantly on blood descent but also allows, under certain circumstances, for members of the tribe to be added.
Judaism does this through the mechanism of God and the covenant being the uber tribe. But I would also argue that Bibilical Judaism is about creation of the nation-state and the rise of the nation-state as the uber tribe. This is the primary transition between Joshua and Judges, in which there is clearly a dominant tribal structure which acts as a sort of loose confederation, and Samuel and Kings I, in which we see the shift to a centralized government.