(no subject)

[teddywolf]

Today I was in my Imperialism class. The discussion went around the pre-modern empires and the notion of tribe. Historical tribe, by my professor's definition, is bound by bonds of blood. He brought up the Jews as the first historical pre-modern empire and, among other things, said that this was based on Jewish tribal notions which had no conversions until the modern era.

I decided I had to speak up at this point. I mentioned we had a strong history of conversions, even though they were less common before the modern era. I brought up Ruth, I brought up the Khazars, and mentioned that a number of converts were notable in our history. He then said, "Then why are you a tribe? You can't be G-d's Chosen People by blood while allowing others to join your tribe, it's not logical." I mentioned the distinction between religiously Jewish and Jewish by birth; he said the notions were still incompatible.

Do bear in mind I like my professor. He makes me think and is academically rigorous.

His definition of tribe is as something immutable, you are born to it or not, or might get forced into it by conflict.

I want to present to him examples of tribes that accepted in outsiders to become "of the tribe". I will be doing some research into this because I want to present it to him - yes, I have been looking. If any of you know of an historical example, off the top of your head, something not involving a marriage or slavery, I would appreciate a pointer. It could be somebody joining a Native American tribe, or brought into a particular African tribe, or a Chinese family, a Germanic village, what-have-you - in fact, the more diverse the better. I want to show that a tribe may have been primarily about blood but also could be something a person chose and, under exceptional circumstances, be accepted into.

Please feel free to signal boost this.

Comments

[asimaiyat.livejournal.com]

... what about escaped/freed Black former slaves in the US marrying or converting into Native American tribes? I know there are some of those in my husband's family tree.

(hi, btw! I'm a friend of Ayesha's.)

(I hate having that kind of conflict in class, also. :( Last year it led to a very anxious office hours meeting with a professor where I had to really awkwardly explain what it means to me to allow for queer readings of classic texts.)

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

Howdy and welcome :-)
His definition was looking at tribes with, I suspect, a demarcation at the Treaty of Westphalia (1648). I need to doublecheck this with him; at the same time, he did point to Native tribes as the only currently-extant example of tribalism in the US.

While I am admittedly worried about debating with the professor over a point he considers settles he has shown that he is willing to talk from and about other viewpoints. A critical example of this was him taking a viewpoint during the previous summer session class about what he considers a legitimate and proper use of state power but then not letting it be the sole or even a necessary criteria in our sole paper.

[asimaiyat.livejournal.com]

I remembered another one -- some Jews fleeing from the Spanish Inquisition in the 1400s and joined the Berber tribes of Morocco and Algeria.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

Well... here's the thing: in Europe, Asia and Africa the Jews were considered a people apart because wherever they went they maintained their tribal affiliation as Jews. When the Jews fled the Inquisition and joined the Berbers, did they renounce their Jewishness and fully assimilate into the Berbers? If the answer is Yes then I can present it as a data point to my prof.

[smillaraaq.livejournal.com]

There's a long, long history of close association, including intermarriage and adoption, between black and native groups; most of it's been erased from the official accounts, and only in recent years is it getting brought back into the light and researched rather than written off. The book and symposium produced in association this recent NMAI exhibition (http://www.nmai.si.edu/exhibitions/indivisible/introduction.html) has a lot of good material to start with -- I'd be happy to dig up some cites for specific individuals if you think that'd be helpful.