(no subject)

[teddywolf]

I'm not going to touch Gaza right now because that would be an even bigger flamewar, but I am annoyed - yea, to the point of pissed off - with Hesbollah.

Israel left the Golan Heights and the rest of southern Lebanon. They completely withdrew. Their reason for staying in the Golan Heights was specifically because it was far too easy for missile strikes on Israel to be launched from there.

Hesbollah dashed into Israel - invaded, technically - kidnapped a soldier, and started firing a surprisingly large number of rockets at Israel. Apparently, they had some help from another country or two, like, oh, say, Syria and Iran. Many rockets fired, a number of casualties in Israel.

We know what Israel's response was: blockade the ports, wreck the main roads to Syria and make the airport unusable, as well as target some government buildings as they feel the government might have more sway than publicly reported (ie None). The reasons given: they do not want Hesbollah to take their soldier out of Lebanon, and they do not want Hesbollah to have easy access to resupply. Hesbollah talked about 'prisoner' exchange - the soldier for a goodly number of Hesbollah members in Israeli jails. This time, Israel refused. This is the first time I can think of where Israel flat-out refused such an exchange.

Oh, the reason I put prisoner in quotes? The Hesbollah prisoners in Israeli jails have been tried in a court of law, been found guilty in said court, and have been kept in jails. The kidnapped soldier has not been tried or convicted in a court of law and is not, to the best of anybody's knowledge who isn't holding him, in an official jail.

I initially thought that the Israeli response was too severe, as it was causing intense damage to infrastructure. I'm not as sure of that any more owing to the extremely provocative nature of Hesbollah's attack, the lack of Lebanese actions of any sort to rein in Hesbollah, and the stated reasons for why Israel is targeting what it is targeting.

Israel does not want to take over Lebanon. It wants its soldier back and wants Hesbollah to stop attacking.

If, say, Cuban nationalist terrorists* came into the US, kidnapped a US soldier, fired rockets into Florida, and demanded that the US release a large number of Cuban nationalist terrorists* in return for the US soldier, what do you think the US would do? What do you think the US should do?

*Yes, I know there has been no sign of Cuban nationalist terrorists. I am using these mythical beats for purpose of example.

All right, talk to me.

Comments

[awfief.livejournal.com]

Giving up land for peace doesn't work. Remember Solomon's baby? Except in this case, they take half the baby.

Just because you know people there doesn't make your involvement necessarily more. I haven't heard that anything's changed from my family there (and let me be clear -- it is ALL of my family and extended family. My parents emigrated to Israel after getting married in '69 -- so aunts, uncles, cousins, grandmothers, everyone's over there). To me, that means everything is under control (either that, or total annihilation of my family and my parents' childhood friends).

The last time I went to Israel, everyone over here cautioned that terrorism was high. I should be careful. A major terrorist action occured while I was there. Except it occured in the US. Unlike the US, Israelis deal with actual terrorism on a real basis every day. They take taxis instead of the bus and don't go to nightclubs (much like folks around the US don't walk alone on unlit streets at 3 am). They don't go to, or through, Jerusalem unless absolutely necessary (the best route to the Dead Sea from Tel Aviv is through Jerusalem, and the last time I was there, we took the long way).

There isn't the heightened fear from these things. Compare to Boston -- everyone's afraid to drive in a tunnel because one person died. If one person dies of heat exhaustion on the Common, are they going to tent the whole thing? Israelis aren't shaking in their boots. They're going on with their lives, taking precautions when necessary. Just as we all do, it's just that our [perceived] dangers are different.

Israel is prepared for war, as it has always been. It stinks, but that's what you get for creating a country surrounded by enemies. How long do you think Fidel Castro would last if Cuba were Wyoming? War is awful, but it's not much different from the way they were living before.

As for the Golan Heights, recall that the only reason Israel has control is the 6 days' war. Which my father fought in and watched friends die in, by the way. Syria tried to invade Israel, and so Israel pushed them back (they got the Gaza Strip at that time).

Furthermore, the only folks that live in the higher terrorist places like the Gaza Strip are folks who live there knowing the risks. They are freedom fighters (both Palestinian and Israeli) that put themselves and their families at risk to prove a point. (No, they shouldn't have to prove their point, however, there is no lack of freedom fighters willing to die for a cause in any country).

So when you hear that a bomb explodes at a checkpoint, or near a settlement, that's what we're talking about. There hasn't been much terrorist activity in Tel Aviv (that's usually where the bus/nightclub/ATM bombs are).

Civilians, sure, but that's like going onto Native American tribal grounds, claiming the land as yours even though it's not, and then raising a family and wondering why they're violent towards you (well, OK, NA tribes are mostly peaceful, but I'm trying to make a point). Your family doesn't deserve to have violence, but you moved there on purpose! (or stayed there on purpose, for going on 40 years).

Have you actually heard that the climate is different? Are the people you know ACTUALLY AFFECTED by this? Or are you, like many people with family in the country, just saying "well it affects me because I have family there." Because I have dozens of folks over there, and nothing seems to have changed.

For the most part, life doesn't change for the average civilian when there's a war. Or even a threat of war -- in 1991, they passed out gas masks to residents in case Saddam tried a gas attack on Israel (only a few SCUDs did damage).

[magid.livejournal.com]

For the most part, life doesn't change for the average civilian when there's a war. Or even a threat of war -- in 1991, they passed out gas masks to residents in case Saddam tried a gas attack on Israel (only a few SCUDs did damage).

I was living in Jerusalem during the 1991 Gulf War, and my life did change, even without gas attacks.

[awfief.livejournal.com]

*nod* I'd expect it to -- see the part about avoiding Jersualem, above. If you said you'd been in the Golan Heights or the what became the Gaza Strip during the Gulf War, or the Sinai Peninsula during the 6 days' war, I would expect that your life changed too.

While students and scholars may live there (year-round or during programs), Jerusalem is much like the settlements -- rocked with violence. Those who choose to live there do it with full knowledge (and are mostly religious fanatics).

[awfief.livejournal.com]

To give you a counterpoint, I was living in Tel Aviv in 1990, when Saddam invaded Kuwait. And my life didn't change, except for a few security measures (although we still took the bus back then).

Strange

[shmuelisms.livejournal.com]

My experience of the [First] Gulf-War was wildly different. Much of the Tel-Aviv metropolitan area was a ghost-town after dark (around 6pm!) I was doing some training in Ramat-Gan, just outside of Tel-Aviv, and Jabotinsky street, the main thoroughfare was practically deserted by 7pm, which normally would still be heavily packed in "rush hour" mode at that hour.

Re: Strange

[awfief.livejournal.com]

Sounds like you're talking about January, during the war itself. I wasn't clear, but I was referring to when Saddam invaded Kuwait, which happened in August 2000, the Gulf War itself started January 2001.