The Law is an Ass

[teddywolf]

Tonight I turned on my friendly Temporary Vegetating mental device to slow down to be ready for sleep. As Dragonball Z was a repeat I went to Politically Incorrect. I was quite glad to see Penn of Penn and Teller fame on the show. Social anarchist in the proper sense of the word, he was making it hard for Bill Mahar to disagree with him. Heh.

What got me up in arms was the guest Republican. The show always has a Republican and they try to book pretty young female ones as often as they can to show it's not all fat old rich white guys. This lady opined that people in jail on drug charges are there because they broke the law, if people want to change the law they need to vote for people who will try to change the law and the fact that people aren't doing so proves they want these laws on the books.

One of the principles of the US Constitution is that the laws of the land, while they are laws to be obeyed by Man, are also laws that are supposed to serve Man. Laws preventing murder are there to serve the community: they at least try to punish murdering somebody and do provide disincentive for doing so. Hurt somebody else, face jail time. Simple. There's an obvious victim, an obvious perpetrator and there's an obvious hurt.
This law that the cute young Republican gal nigh-worships doesn't punish actions that have a victim. So we lock up people who haven't hurt anybody with other people who have hurt people, ostensibly to "rehabilitate" them and prevent them from committing further crimes. This is supposed to teach people that hurting people is worse than not hurting people how??

As for choice of politicians... when there's a pro-legalization candidate running for office I'm going to consider that plank a point in that politician's favor. Funny how there *wasn't* one in the last Presidential election, or in my Congressional election, or in the Senate election, or the State officials election... should I go on? There might be some pro-legalization assistant dogcatchers somewhere but I haven't heard of them making it successfully to office.

I want representatives who'll try to clear up our prisons by getting rid of a couple million people out of there who don't need to be jailed.

Comments

[gingicat]

I agree that people who *take* drugs are not the criminals, but are in fact the victims.

What about people who sell drugs? What about people who are pushed into violent crime to support their drug habit?

--your sweetie, recognizing this may be a place where we agree to disagree

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

Those who sell drugs, that's a tricky issue. Obviously they aren't pharmacists. I would say providing they weren't selling materials cut with poison (which some of them do) then let 'em go.
As for those who commit violent crimes to support their drug habits? Same as for somebody who commits violent crimes for any habit, like booze or gambling - imprisonment, counselling and rehabilitation. Those who don't commit other crimes don't need imprisonment.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with you more, Wolf.

Growing up in large cities can make the War on [some] Drugs look like a very good idea *wave to Tigerlily my fellow Noo Yawkah*, but as I've been reading about stuff I've been realizing that a lot of the energy that makes this problem so vicious is supplied by its illegality. Who shoots someone over cigarette-selling turf, or mugs people to buy beer? Whereas people *did* shoot people and mug people over alcohol in the 1920's.

Of course, not all of the problems with drugs in our society are caused by illegality. But it seems to me, as I watch the uses to which the WOD is put, the way illegality helps jack up prices and therefore make drug profits worth being violent over, and the times when people are jailed instead of being able to get treatment, that making many kinds of drug use controlled but not illegal might help us clear up many of these problems as a society.

(More later maybe. Maybe not.)

A, social theorist.

[magid.livejournal.com]

Heck, if some drugs were legal, they could be taxed, and those monies could be used to study how addiction works, or to focus the WOD on some more harmful (as determined by ? not sure.) drugs, or something. Plus it would make it a crime to sell things that weren't pot, for instance, as pot...
h

[gingicat]

*nod* I used to have discussions in high school with my jazz teacher on this topic. He would point to Prohibition, when alcohol was a dangerous drug mostly because it was illegal. Where we disagreed was when he said that Charlie Parker and Billie Holliday would have been okay *even as heroin addicts* if heroin hadn't been illegal. Heroin and cocaine and crack are nasty things, and I feel that too many people lump them in with marijuana and alchohol and tobacco.

[magid.livejournal.com]

I still have problems with things being smoked, though, since that affects people around the user, not just the user perself.
s

[nsingman.livejournal.com]

When it comes to drug legalization, neither Republicrats nor Democans are particularly enthusiastic. The Dems have been moderately more supportive of decriminalization of marijuana, at least, but not when they're tacking right in general elections.

Incidentally, in the "fault lies not in our stars, but in our selves" department, I blame the high counts of jailed drug offenders on the citizens who sat on the defendants' juries and voted guilty. When I sat on a grand jury, I voted "no bill" on every single drug offense - every one. On criminal juries, it would be a simple matter for an energized citizenry to use their right of jury nullification. Heck - enough hung juries, and the point would be made. Unfortunately, I'm not confident it will happen soon.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

Another problem with the WOSD is that it has resulted in mass disenfranchisement of African-Americans. A felony conviction means a lifetime disqualification from voting (and therefore from public office) in many states. For you second-amendment types, it's also a lifetime bar to legal gun ownership in all 50 states.

Then there's finding and keeping a job, a place to live, credit, etc. with a felony conviction on your record.

So what you have is broad based denial of civil rights by race, since the WOSD unfairly falls on African-Americans. It's Jim Crow all over again, and worst of all, they've gotten African-Americans to go along with it by getting them to believe "it's all for their own good."

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

(Noah, meet Bikergeek. Bill, meet Noah)

That's another thing bugging me. Part of the rules behind jailtime was supposed to be once you were finished your debt was served and you could go back to full rights as a citizen. This can't vote can't bear arms can't be on a jury crap has *got* to go!

[kyttn.livejournal.com]

So what you have is broad based denial of civil rights by race, since the WOSD unfairly falls on African-Americans. It's Jim Crow all over again, and worst of all, they've gotten African-Americans to go along with it by getting them to believe "it's all for their own good."

Why do you say the WOSD unfairly falls on African-Americans? No one forces any person, regardless of skin color, to get involved in drugs. For each person it is a personal choice, either to use, to sell, both, or to have nothing to do with drugs. Whether we agree with the consequences that are currently in force for dealing drugs, everyone who chooses to do so knows what the risks are. Why shouldn't they suffer the consequences if they do? When I tell my son "If you do x, y will happen to you", then if he does x, y should happen. It is his choice.

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

I will make a few points.
First, if there is more pressure to do something in a particular social group then more people will end up doing it.
Second, aggregate data and studies show that Black people, on average and in aggregate, earn less than White people.
Third, more aggregate data and studies show that there is a higher percentage of drug use, in aggregate and average, among people who earn less money.
Fourth, still more aggregate data and studies show that in a courtroom Black people are, on average, more likely to be convicted and also more likely to get a tougher sentence than White people.

All together the WO(s)D has thus had the effect of putting a higher percentage of Black people in jail than White people.

A small Fifth: for all the popular rhetoric about "no one forces" I am sure that there are some (though not many) people who are indeed forced to try drugs of various types - not just peer pressure but well and truly forced, even by the most radical Libertarian standpoint.

I don't believe it to be a big plot somebody dreamed up, but whether there was a mastermind or shadow group behind the total effect or not the total effect is still the same. Per capita, more Black people who use illegal drugs go to jail for illegal drug use than White people who use illegal drugs. God that was pedantic!›

[kyttn.livejournal.com]

While I agree with most of what you and Bikergeek have said, I still think that people are ultimately responsible for their own actions. If you are poor and hungry, you have choices. You can beg for work, taking whatever you can get. You can beg for food or money. You can steal. You can prostitute yourself. But when you make your choice you have to take into account that if you steal, you might get caught and go to jail. Same for prostitution, and your risk your health with that as well.

The system isn't fair. I agree with that. Unfortunately that is something we can't easily change. Skin color should have absolutely nothing to do with the type of punishment given for a certain crime. Nor should it be an excuse to behave in a certain manner.

As a cab driver I've had people curse at me, call me names, and then when I told them to get out of the car, accuse me of wanting them out because they were black. That wasn't the reason. I don't take that kind of stuff from any passenger. When I started driving a cab, I picked up any order regardless of color or dress. I thought other drivers were predjudiced when they told me not to pick up certain folk and refused to do so themselves. By the time I stopped driving I was just as biased against a certain look. Why? Because of my personal experiences with people who looked that way. Most of them happened to be black. Does that make me predjudiced? Is it wrong that most cab drivers in this area are hesitant about picking up in certain black neighborhoods where there have been shoot-outs? No. Would it be wrong if we said we wouldn't pick up any black fares at all? Yes. If a fare curses a cab driver, should he get a ride just because of the color of his skin, or should he not be suprised when no driver wants to give him a ride.

I've rambled much more than I meant to. My original post really was a question to find out what Bikergeek's statement was based on. My bottom line, though, is if you know what you are doing has a consequence, fair or not, you can't blame the system for enforcing that consequence.

[bikergeek.livejournal.com]

If that's true, then why are the penalties for crack cocaine (which is used primarily by African-Americans) so much harsher than the penalties for powder cocaine, which is used primarily by affluent whites? Same drug, different form, radically different penalties.

Never mind the race-based disparities inherent in the entire criminal justice system from arrest through sentencing. Black people are more likely to get stopped on the street or while driving, the stop is more likely to result in a search if you're Black, you're more likely to get jail time for the same offense if you're Black.

TOTALLY off topic here....

[zebraartist.livejournal.com]

I saw your message in another's journal about FLIRTING....so.... I stopped by to randomly flirt with the handsome man depicted on the icon in that message!

*smile and a wink*

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

*grin*
*blush*
Well, by all means flirting is accepted here :)
(Yer rather pretty yerself too)ñ

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[zebraartist.livejournal.com]

I like this user icon of yours....also like the first one on your icon list.... I've got a thing for 'hair farmers' *wink*

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

Aww, it only goes halfway down my back...
(at least the stuff on my head anyways :)∞

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[zebraartist.livejournal.com]

Awww, only HALF way? Well, it's a START!
Perhaps it needs some good pulling! ;-)

Good morning, enjoy your weekend!

ummmm, btw - I have a photo journal you are welcome to look at, if you like - anaya_arts

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

*chuckle* Nah, my hair isn't good for pulling. What about yours? :-)

In truth I've already seen your photo journal *eyes twinkling* I like it, muchly - and it is *so* not worksafe! ;) Not that I'm at work right now, that comes tomorrow.–

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[zebraartist.livejournal.com]

My my....already seen the photo journal.....very interesting! Do tell just exactly HOW is it that you happened to run across my photo journal?
just curious, really.....makes me smile that you were peeking!

Hair pulling? OH YES! Under the right circumstances(no pun intended), I INSIST! *wink*

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[teddywolf.livejournal.com]

Your photo journal had a couple of links from your friends list - so I looked. And I liked. :-)

Hair pulling can be fun yes... and I do know those fun circumstances. Quite fond of those circumstances, especially the happy whimpers and gasps.

Re: TOTALLY off topic here....

[zebraartist.livejournal.com]

"especially the happy whimpers and gasps"

DITTO!!!!!